Is This a Coffee / Drink or a Date? (Guest Article)

coffee date drinkWe have been encouraged so much over the past decade by the dating advice books and magazine to take things easy, to keep it light and casual when meeting someone new, not to put any pressure on each other and not have any expectations. We thus may have gone to the extreme of keeping those encounters that are supposed to be first dates too casual and completely non-romantic. What used to be a first date, full of hope and anticipation for romance, connection and passion is now anything but that.

As a woman of mixed ethnicity in her early thirties, I know that men find me attractive both because of the looks I get wherever I go, and because of the modeling work I have done for several local agencies over the years, that I know don’t accept just anyone for modeling. Ever since my 6-year relationship ended about a year and half ago, I have been “actively” dating.  It’s amazing to me how much things have changed since my days of meeting guy before my last relationship. I have met quite a few men since my recent break-up, and yet no one asked me “out”. It’s always “let’s get a drink” or “let’s get coffee”. No one seems to want or no one seems to have the balls to put their ego on the line and make the girl feel special by asking her out.  Some suggest that the chivalry is dead. Forget about chivalry. A far more basic flirting seems to be gone.

The last few guys I met while out and about offered me their number instead of asking me for one. What’s wrong with them and what’s wrong with the world? Have they forgotten that they are men and I am the girl? Or have they been brainwashed to be a challenge with girls for way too long, not realizing that few things are more attractive to us, women, than the guy who goes after what he wants?  And the ones who ask me for my number, start sending me “witty” text messages that are only funny to them, instead of picking up the phone, hearing my voice, letting me hear their voice and again – asking me out. Do they really think girls whose texting schedule is already full with their friends and co-workers want another texting buddy?

are there any benefits to this trend of becoming ever more passive and casual on the part of men that I am not yet aware of? Do guys today really think that giving out their business cards to the women they meet is better than asking women for a phone number? Would a “real” man ask the girl he is hitting on “Are you on Facebook?”

I really hope that I will soon meet the kind of guy who can ask me out, make my brain and other parts tingle, and then lead me in the direction that he wants in his own assertive and charming ways without asking me for permission to hold my hand or kiss me, but instead – just do it. I honestly don’t think it’s too much for any woman to ask from the supposedly stronger sex.

 

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About practicalh

Practical, effective dating tips and relationship advice.
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Imy
Imy
04/01/2015 5:57 pm

Every women is different when it comes down to approaching them. Practiclah, states she prefers a bloke to be a man and ask her out instead of Coffee/Phone Number etc. However, i recently met a good looking Latino women at the gym, we would chat at the gym and i eventually earned her trust to walk her home after 10 pm, her place was around 15 minutes away from the gym. I walked her home on at least 7/8 times, while on our way home we occasionally got touchy and flirty with each other, however, i kept the respect factor intact and did not come hard or pushy. But, last week i finally got the nerve to be the man “the Editor of this forum” is asking for. I asked her out! I asked if she would like to join me for a day out. I mentioned a trip to play bowls, sight seeing [as she is a Latin foreigner] and we could also share a nice dinner/coffee together. I was amazed when she replied: “Don’t know, No, lets stay friends for the moment at the gym.” I was a little ashamed at being pegged back, but remained confident and replied: “it’s Ok, i meant a friendly day out and did not mean anything bad.” My point is – every women is different on she wants to be approached. Maybe not all women want to be asked directly for a date, while others may want it to start with a simple Coffee invitation. In my case neither a direct date or a coffee invitation worked. Women are so unpredictable and confusing!

practicalh
04/02/2015 8:54 am
Reply to  Imy

I completely agree. Every woman and every person is different and different approaches work on different people.
In your examples, it appears that you made an obvious mistake -you went from being very light and casual to offering to have a “day out”. That’s too much. Next time, when you start an interaction with a girl and thinks go well, you should do exactly what you mention – something very simple and short so they don’t feel any kind of first date pressure and then go from there.
When I say direct, I definitely don’t mean “Let’s have a date and spend all day together” or anything like that. In fact, in at least one video I suggest that guys never even use the term “date”.

Imy
Imy
04/09/2015 10:51 am
Reply to  practicalh

Just to correct myself: I did not mention a full day out or even a date. I invited her for a simple, friendly coffee. A coffee/chat which would take 30 mins of her precious time. I say “precious time” because she is a workaholic. However, for the sake of making things sound a bit interesting, i mentioned about enjoying [Bowls] just to keep options open. Let’s be honest not all young, active Women are into Coffee. Now, moving on, i don’t agree with you that i left it to late. I basically trusted my own instincts, after all, i am the one who was talking/listening to her and looking out for any potential hints/signals. From the first day we spoke she told me that she has no time for full filling her hobbies or interest. She is too busy working. In fact she sometimes goes [Seven days] without attending gym – would you believe it – i am yet to see her for [nine days] since i asked her for a friendly coffee. She is apparently working overtime during the Easter and bank holiday [s] period. In those circumstances do you still suggest i asked her out from day one? Do you think it was the right time? The last thing i wanted her to think was – this guy does not listen! I was kind off looking for the right time and place. I was also not to casual with her, i was definitely did not give her the vibes that i want to keep things in the friend zone, in fact, [i cannot go into to much description] but i had been flirting with her when walking her home, so my intentions were pretty much obvious. Please note: this Women has just been in London for [six months] and is not a too sociable person at gym, she also does not speak fluent English. All i know is she is a lovely person, i appreciate her for trusting me.

practicalh
04/09/2015 12:35 pm
Reply to  Imy

Well, if she says she is too busy, like so many corporate, modern women, this should be a major read flag. This means that she will be chronically unavailable – time-wise and emotionally and even when she is out on a date, her mind won’t be with you. Further, research suggests that women who are extremely busy and stressed out are also less sexually driven or borderline frigid. That sexual coldness, if present, translates into a woman’s other behaviors. In some, it doesn’t sound like you have done anything terrible wrong. She might just not be ready to spend time with anyone; not just you.

Imrly
Imrly
04/10/2015 11:36 am
Reply to  practicalh

Hi, i met her at the gym last night and she smiled and said hi, as if everything was fine. During our sessions i gave her all the space and did my own activity. However, when it was time to leave i was at the front reception, she was about to exit the doors before looking back with a smile and asking, if i would join her on the way home. I responded in a positive manner and walked her to her ends.

Imy
Imy
04/10/2015 2:04 pm
Reply to  practicalh

Still confused after last night, still unsure what she really wants. I just attended gym tonight and she came in briefly to meet her friend, and guess what, today she did not come and say hello before leaving! What should i think now? Last night it was a little promising but now it’s back to square one! Do you have any ideas???

practicalh
04/11/2015 8:27 am
Reply to  Imy

Sounds like either she is not sure of what she wants or she is confused in general. I believe you made your interest clear, and if she didn’t respond in kind, there is no point in pursuing her any further.

Imy
Imy
04/12/2015 12:16 pm
Reply to  practicalh

You could be spot on. Maybe she is not sure what she really wants. The first day that i walked her home, she told me about her boyfriend back in her native country. She said: “i have a boyfriend but will not be visiting my country because i have plans to stay in London.” She did not say if the guy was planning to join her here in future. That’s when i decided on making a move. I have walked this Women to her ends on 9/10 occasions, but have not noticed any vulnerable behaviour, in fact she is a wise women who knows her limits and stands by her decisions. If j had seen anything immature, i would have distanced myself respectfully long ago.

practicalh
04/12/2015 12:46 pm
Reply to  Imy

That’s a good way to think about this, but please remember that many, if not most women’s behavior is quite unpredictable. Just because he acts on way today, doesn’t mean she might not completely change her mind tomorrow. Once you are dating, having sex and in a serious relationship, a woman would become obviously more stable and predictable, but during the initial stages of trying to get to know each other, there could be a hundred reasons why she would be hesitant just about anything.

Imy
Imy
04/12/2015 8:31 pm
Reply to  practicalh

I totally understand why Women have hundreds of reasons to consider during the initial stages. I hope she does reconsider and give me the chance to prove that i am a genuinely, quality guy. I won’t mind the little chase however don’t want to be deemed as needy. I was just wondering what would be the best way to pursue things – any tips? I doubt are telling me “let’s be friends at the gym” means she can’t change her mind. A few day’s ago she asked me to walk her home in front of many people at the gym reception, as if we were more than just friends.

practicalh
04/13/2015 8:34 am
Reply to  Imy

That’s always the trick question – striking the balance between pursuing her and not coming across as needy. I wouldn’t really count too much on her changing her mind and developing greater interest in you – not because there is anything wrong with you, but because statistically it just doesn’t happen very often. I wouldn’t linger around her hoping that she will become interested unless she is truly one of a kind woman in your opinion and so special that it would be worth putting all other opportunities on hold. Otherwise, since you already made your interest clear, I would leave her alone and focus on other things and other girls. And if she happens to want to see you, and you are available and are still interested at that time, you will then act accordingly.

Imy
Imy
04/15/2015 4:41 pm
Reply to  practicalh

In the past few day’s i have took your advice and moved onto other things [Women]. I started by completely ignoring the Women i have been discussing with you. I basically consider her as a time wasting tease. However, since i started ignoring her, she has started to give me more attention and looks. I don’t really understand what to do? All i kniw is she is pretty and i had feeling for her – but then j think this might be her game to get me chasing her!

practicalh
04/15/2015 5:10 pm
Reply to  Imy

That’s not unexpected behavior. I think it proves even more that she likes to be a tease and get confirmation in so many ways that she is being wanted.

Imy
Imy
04/17/2015 7:25 am
Reply to  practicalh

A lot has changed when we last spoke. Basically, i stopped given her my full attention and time. Instead, i started to do what i was at the gym for -train. At the same time i was smiling and socialized with everyone. I acted very confident and proud, and last night it all came off when she walked up to me from behind, as i was making my own way home and asked “could i join you, i replied “cool” We shared a small, detailed conversation, a laugh and then she asked “if the the coffee invitation was still on offer.” I paused for a brief moment and said yes, we then shared a hug, kiss and swapped numbers. Now what shall i think?

practicalh
04/17/2015 9:01 pm
Reply to  Imy

I would give it another chance and ask her to meet for coffee (very casually and non chalantly). If you get anything less than a definite yes, then I would not give any special meaning to any signs of future friendliness from her.

Imy
Imy
04/19/2015 6:34 am
Reply to  practicalh

I shared a lovely Saturday evening with her. Mind you not a date but a coffee as friends. We quickly connected and realized we have a lot more in common than just gym. For example interest and hobbies. Everything went as planned, and after i drove her back to her place, we both agreed on doing it again. We ended by sharing at least a minutes hug and we also kissed each other on the lips. This morning i text her again, thanking her for a great evening and she returned the compliment and added “can’t wait to see you.”

practicalh
04/19/2015 6:44 pm
Reply to  Imy

That’s good news. Hopefully, there will be some consistency in her behavior now.

Imy
Imy
04/21/2015 7:16 am
Reply to  practicalh

I definitely see consistency in her behaviour. Her attitude towards me has rapidly changed – she is beginning to trust me. We met last night for dinner at a lovely Italian restaurant, and it went amazingly well. We now plan t

Imy
Imy
04/21/2015 7:18 am
Reply to  practicalh

We now plan to meet on Saturday, she wants to watch a movie we both spoke about and really want to see. Thanks.

Imy
Imy
04/12/2015 8:50 pm
Reply to  practicalh

Thank you for your responses. Much appreciated! Like i said: was just thinking how to purse things. The last time we walked home, this was around three days ago,i carried on giving her one or two indications that i still want to be more than just friends to her. For example: she told me that “she was home on bank holiday Monday” i responded by saying “i was working, but will be free this coming Sunday.” However, she quietly listened with out the positive response i was searching for. Now, i am not sure, shall i approach her with flirt, be touchy or just take it casual until she kind off drops guard?

Imy
Imy
04/12/2015 12:23 pm
Reply to  practicalh

Maybe she has broken up with her boyfriend [who she really loved or been with for a long while] and is going through emotional times. She may need time to normalise herself. I did notice her getting quite when she bought up her boyfriends topic. In fact i found it very weird when she said: “i have a boyfriend back home but don’t have plans to go back again.” She then asked me if i was born here in London and i replied yeah. I thought she was giving me an indication that her relationship is somewhat over and i looking to move on.

Imy
Imy
04/09/2015 11:01 am
Reply to  practicalh

You maybe right – who knows, but her! I just got talking to her for 2.5 weeks, surely it’s not long enough for her to consider me as a brother!

Mickey
Mickey
07/23/2014 12:30 pm

I saw the video. I don't have an opinion either way.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/23/2014 10:29 am

Basically, they teach the art of owning cajones.

That site, this one, and some of RSD videos are, in my mind, best practical tools that paint the picture.

Mickey
Mickey
03/03/2015 8:33 pm
Reply to  Alohera8

Alohera8:
When the next man-hating feminazi kicks a guy in the “cajones”, where does one go from there???

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/23/2014 9:02 am

For example, they like to talk about "uptalk" versus "downtalk", which is an intonation of your voice. Uptalk makes you sound very submissive and "needy", and they encourage to never, ever use it. They also talk about big-picture things like "standing your ground", which I think is especially important in a direct approach. Lots of other things, such as persistence in situations when most guys would give up, and leading.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/23/2014 8:58 am

Yes, I have personal knowledge and experience, and I think its a good one. I'm referring to their "Project Go" – its a paid service 🙂 , but I think worth it, as they show specifically videos of approaches. Their thing is a direct approach, but again, lots of ideas still apply to the "indirect" approach. I'm also curious what you think of it.

practicalh
practicalh
07/23/2014 10:58 am
Reply to  Alohera8

Very good. Since you signed up for our new forum – perhaps you can write an entry in a little more detail about it, as I am sure it will be very useful to other guys. One issue is that there are so many products, programs and dating gurus out there and only 10% of them are probably worth it. Every good or bad feedback can help direct guys in the right direction and keep them away from wasting money and time on something that's obviously bad.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/23/2014 2:18 pm
Reply to  practicalh

Ok, I will do it within a few weeks.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/23/2014 6:00 am

@Mickey. One thing that can motivate you is a demonstration that approaching and attracting is possible, and that it works in real life on real people. Recently, a lot of in-field pick-up videos have appeared. I think it makes it all look a lot more believable. I don't know if the owner of this site would mind, but I would like to suggest "Project Go" from simplepickup.com Admittedly, this guys are in an entirely different age category (they are in their 20s), but a lot of ideas that they discuss still applies (and echoes a lot of ideas on practical happiness), so I think the difference will only be superficial. Women's psychology remains the same. I suggest you give it a go.

Mickey
Mickey
09/12/2014 10:17 am
Reply to  Alohera8

Alohera8:

“One thing that can motivate you is a demonstration that approaching and attracting is possible…”

No, it isn’t.

That’s just a pickup artist sales pitch.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/22/2014 2:38 am

@ Mickey. Is it possible that you completely clear any perceptions and judgements and start from scratch to pursue ONLY YOUR goal?

**ck the "male bashing". Let them bash all they want. They are full of their own insecurities and frustrations too. …. And the drinks – I never understood why people make such a big deal of it. Is it possible to turn it into a joke? I read somewhere "let's buy each other drinks that we think the other person will like". Speaking of "doing things differently", that immediately takes it to a whole new level.

Also, it seems that you like to meet women in these difficult environments, where women wear bitch shields. To be honest, I have no idea, and never succeeded meeting anyone in bars or clubs. What about casual-style pick-up in Starbucks?

Mickey
Mickey
07/22/2014 2:18 pm
Reply to  Alohera8

Alohera8:

I don't meet women in any difficult environments. I gave up on approaching women years ago. It's nothing but an exercise in futility for me.

Mickey
Mickey
07/22/2014 3:29 pm
Reply to  practicalh

There's nothing implicit here. I openly admit it. I've never denied throwing in the sponge.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/22/2014 2:28 am

to be honest RSD has a lot of good videos full of substance, not just bs

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/21/2014 3:05 pm

Mickey, what does success look like in your imagination, where you are right now? If you close your eyes and picture it, what would be happening? I understand you feel discontented, and I hope others are not judging you.

Mickey
Mickey
07/22/2014 2:16 pm
Reply to  Alohera8

Alohera8:

At this point in my life, I couldn't tell you what dating success looks like if it came up to me and smacked me in the head.

I don't think anyone is judging me. This is my opinion and my experience.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/22/2014 3:05 pm
Reply to  practicalh

lol. He said he's in Austin, heading over to 6th street. When I googled “6th street austin texas” and clicked on it LOTS of these sort of Mardi-Gras type images came up. In fact, some came up a lot more drunk and happy than what we saw in the video. If this isn’t happens, I don’t know what is.

Mickey
Mickey
07/23/2014 6:54 am
Reply to  practicalh

Maybe they were all actresses???

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/21/2014 6:36 am

What are some of your examples of "doing things different from anyone else"?

@Mickey. Please share with us the practical reality that you have come across and in what way it disagrees with this "theory"? Yes, those things I wrote sound like all those "nice things that we keep hearing in theory", but it is actually a result of my recent in-field struggles, crashes, burns and very modest triumphs – and not recitations of what other people wrote. Anyway, please share your personal experiences.

Mickey
Mickey
07/21/2014 12:14 pm
Reply to  Alohera8

@Alohera8:

Below are some of the comments I've made on this site in the recent past, based on my own experience. You can take them for what they are worth. In no particular order:

1) Unfortunately, as I near age 50, the new national pastime of male bashing has picked up speed since my time in college nearly thirty years ago. Thus, the only options seem to be to either endure the situation as it is and get repeatedly shot down, or cut your losses and get out of Dodge.

I saw a recent post on this site that perfectly summed up the overall hopelessness (as I see it) of approaching & trying to date: “I am hot. You want me and you know it, but you can’t have me.” If that is not the definitive statement of being unapproachable, I'd love to hear a better one.

Even on the off chance that there may be a special someone off in the distance, I'm not convinced anymore that looking for the proverbial needle in the ten thousand foot haystack is worth the aggravation and acrimony. Sorry, but I just can't see it.

2) And what would you say about those women who are open in their hostility to guys, enjoy destroying guys’ confidence for the fun of it, and wear their so-called “bitch shield” like a badge of honor, DARING you to approach?

3) It's at the point now where you see nothing but male bashing all the time, now. This has nothing with approach anxiety or insecurity. At this stage of the game, women truly hate men and will step on one every chance they get. Sorry, I just don't believe in finding that so-called "special someone".

4) It's kind of hard to take dating seriously when most women tend to believe that guys bring nothing to the table in any relationship.

5) Just for some laughs, wanna guess who these women are more likely to be sleeping with: the seven figure CEO/drug dealer/thug, or the minimum wage waiter/actor with a good heart? I just don’t know…

6) I refuse to entertain the notion of buying a woman a drink at a bar. When I buy her a drink or two only to see her run off with some other guy, WHAT THEN???

Mickey
Mickey
07/18/2014 2:17 pm

That all sounds good in theory. The practical reality, as I have frequently discussed in this forum, is a little different.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/18/2014 1:09 pm

I guess my reply is actually addressed to a guy, but its also good to present a guys' perspective. Maybe in your case the guys are intimidated by your looks, or they assume that you get hit-on a lot, so they play it safe – sometimes its a mistake to play safe, but that's what their common sense suggest.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/18/2014 3:45 am

… for example, a cool way to demonstrate interest is an over-the-top tongue-in-cheek statement like "great, let me have your information and I'll start working on our honeymoon plans" at the first meeting. Some sort of a clear exaggeration. It leaves open the possibility of interest, but is not a meek, needy way to display it that IN PRACTICE almost always pushes women away.

Alohera8
Alohera8
07/18/2014 3:40 am

Excellent points. As a woman these are the things you WANT.

But …. theres a but.

A great Russian poet, Alexander Pushkin has written (this is some translation of course)

"The less we show our love to a woman,

Or please her less, and neglect our duty,

The more we trap and ruin her surely

In the flattering toils of philandery."

Think about it.

Why does it happen this way? I mean any man who has put an effort to achieve greater success at dating knows that a simple, meek statement of interest does not work. It doesn't. Does it mean he can't demonstrate interest?

So where's the middle ground? My current view is this: a man CAN display an open interest but he has to have some kind of an edge – be it sarcastic humor, some sort of "teasing", some sort of demonstration of being interesting, etc. And it has to be pretty strong. There are many terms for the same thing (some call it "neg", some call it "cocky humor", some simply call it "sarcasm"). This is what you call confidence.

On the other hand, a man may also not demonstrate a direct interest, but hint at it – leave it as an open possibility, bu again, ***demonstrate some sort of an edge***.

Both ways will likely accomplish what you want – awaking romantic senses, introduce an element of surprise and anticipation. The way a man finds that edge really depends on his personality and circumstances. Arkadiy likes to talk about sarcasm and being "interesting" as a way to do that.

Just sharing my personal opinion, and wonder if others agree with it.